Hey guys, there is no reason to believe we will forfeit again. Like I said, this is the only forfeit loss I incurred in 10 years in this league.
I'm certainly aware of the options at my disposal to be sure we don't forfeit, i.e., Bulletin Board messages, making calls, etc. Trust me, I have loads of guys I could call to play ... Simply, players I was expecting to show didn't show. I was expecting 10. I dealt this this privately, and we now have 1 player removed for the roster.
To correct Frank, we had six players because Tommy Henderson showed up at 6 p.m. So, we would have had 8 had we borrowed two players from you. And, as I stated, and according to the rules, we can play with 8 players. But then, Jim Porter showed up at 6:20, so you would have gotten one of your players back by the time inning two rolled around. No, you didn't know that, but we also said before game time that we weren't sure if someone would be pulling into the lot at any second.
Also, Fred Philips was in his car on the hill and wanted to play. He is not age-eligible, so you said no to us using him. He's in his 40s, but not 46 this year. Someone told you he was a good player and that influenced your decision. As it turned out, he would have made 8 and we wouldn't have had to borrow a player.
Also, Frank, you flat out told me that you and 1 other player wanted to play, but the rest of your guys wanted to take the forfeit win. Then several of your guys wondered why we left and didn't want to play a scrimmage, hence a rude remark from one of my players. For that, I apologize. He was frustrated having driven 35 miles one way to come up short when it ultimately could have been prevented.
Frank, you are the manager, the leader of your team. You should have made the choice that you felt was right. And I think the decision you felt was right was to go with the vote of your team. But it's funny, as you deliberated with your players and I went to my bench, I told them before you came over that your team was voting on it, so get ready to go home.
One of your players remarked that he felt dissed because had you been one of the better teams in the division, we would have had enough players show up, and that's why he voted not to play. Yup, we wanted you to start 2-0, and have us lose our opener by forfeit and pay a $125 forfeit fine because we simply didn't respect your team. Not to mention me being embarrased as a manager and as a board member. Yup, that's it. That's all worth $125 to me.
BUT, as I told you, and I sincerely mean it, I wasn't mad at you or anyone on your team at all. I was ticked at my own players for not showing up or letting me know they weren't coming. That falls on me. I took on the role as manager and I failed. My bad.
But personally, and I mean this just as a guide for the future, I have had opportunity, or have been on a team that has had opportunity, in the 10 years I've been in this league to take a forfeit win. I once let a team borrow THREE players to get the game in. Many times I've let teams borrow 1 or 2. That's the spirit in which CDMSBL was created. We don't want to pay umps $110, plus a field-use fee to not play.
I have to live with my failings in Game 1, and your team has to live with its decision. Please, and I mean this, don't feel at all bad about this. But learn from it, and try to understand the spirit of CDMSBL and sportsmanship.
In closing, I have added three new players to the Hornets roster and now have 16. And many thanx to all of my CDMSBL friends who have come forward to tell me they are available if I'm ever in a pinch again. Trust me, if I know I'm going to be short, keep the arms loose.
Good luck Cougars the rest of the way. You do have a roster full of good players, and good guys as well. Again, no hard feelings. I just wanted to set the facts straight. Let's play ball.
With all the guys hanging around, if a player who is registered with CDMSBL is at the field and a team is short handed, that player should be allowed to play regardless of the age category or how good he is, in order to prevent a forfeit. It should be allowed. Period. Maybe he can't pitch but play absolutely.
Board members...please come up with a policy. We have a long season, everyone registered intends to play and be at games. But things happen, guys get hurt, wives get bent cause we are out playing ball. We are losing focus that this is still just for fun. And not getting to play is no fun at all, for either team.
It boggles my mind to think that if even just 16 guys from a couple of teams show up to a game, after all the trouble it takes to get the time free, to get the umps there, to get a field available, that a game would not commence. Imagine if you had a car accident on the way home? Or a heart attack the next day? Or get struck by lightning 2 days later? You would have missed your chance to play one more game of baseball! Nuts!
I'm sorry for the errors I made in my initial reply (below).
In fact, I checked the league rules last night (where's a lawyer when you need one?) and according to what I see, the game must start with 9 on a side--though it can end with 8. Also, the rules dictate no more than 2 borrowed players.
I was perfectly willing to let you start with 8. And I had no problem with your borrowing 3. As I said, I wanted to play. (But perhaps we should look into amending the rules to specifically state that mutually agreeable modifications are permissible and that the "rules" are, in fact, only suggestions.)
My players did, indeed, feel somewhat differently about this issue than I did. They made some persuasive arguments to me and I followed their wishes.
I don't want to speak for them. I have encouraged them to express themselves here.
By the way, I, myself, did not hear any comments from your players. But I can understand that they were disappointed.
Jim, as I hope you know, I have a world of respect for you. You were considerate yesterday--indeed, gracious--under what had to be unhappy and stressful circumstances for you. You made it clear that you were not blaming me, and I was grateful for that. I'm also grateful that you took the time to provide some guidance for the future.
Sometimes it's tough knowing exactly what to do when we are called upon to make quick decisions--especially for me, as I tend to like to deliberate even trivial matters at great length. Experience has taught me that hastily-made decisions can bring about unhappy consequences.
Yesterday, I was forced to make a quick choice between two less than appealing alternatives. I still believe, under the circumstances, I made the correct decision.
In conclusion, it was my call as manager and I accept full responsibility for it.
Yes, I stand by my players. They did what they had to do to get themselves to the field ready to play; they felt that by doing so they had fully honored their part of the bargain. I think they had every right to expect our worthy opponent to do the same.
I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions and will take them to heart.
Thursday night at New Scotland SHOULD have been a great evening. Weather was beautiful, and I've never seen the field look so good. Speaking for myself, I enjoy our games with the Hornets, because many of their guys (Jimmy K, Bam, Billy, Lannon, JP) are former teammates from the Knights/Fordians. Believe me, I came to play, and so did the rest of my team. Jim is a good friend, and always will be, but I'm getting a little annoyed at the growing buzz that somehow, the Cougars were, in the end, the bad guys in this situation.
Most of the facts that have been stated to date are very true. We had 11, they had 5. (OK, 6. I never saw a 6th, but I'll take Jimmy K's word for it) The umpires were standing around, arms crossed, saying, "Well, gentlemen...?"
How many guys could/should we have loaned them? Two? three? Frank now says he doubts he could have played the entire game because of nagging injuries. So, maybe in truth we were just down to 10 1/2 players?!
Yes, Fred Phillips (and Susie) was there--and had his gear with him, at least spikes, glove, and a bat....and a desire to play. It's been suggested that we somehow said he could not play because of his age and his ability. (If you don't know Fred, he's one helluva ballplayer--one who can take charge of a game all by himself) I did not hear anyone on our side of the field ever say Fred could not play---age restriction or not. I certainly did not. Yes, Jim Porter showed up--albeit briefly--a little later on while we were working out, and well after the situation had already been decided and most of the Hornets had gone.
This is my 19th year playing MSBL baseball. I've founded teams, managed teams, sat on league boards. I've been on both sides of the forfeit issue (I had to forfeit a playoff game once because my catcher and my SS were thisclose to a knockdown drag-out fight in the middle of the field and everybody else was taking sides) I've always been told you HAVE to show up with at least 8, then I'll loan you one to make 9. I've never seen a league game--ANYWHERE--start with one team having only 6. It's a forfeit, and that's all there is to it. Frankly, I don't feel the Cougars have one thing to apologize for or be embarrassed about.
If there's a coulda/shoulda....maybe Jimmy and Frank should have gotten together BEFORE the umpires got there, and jointly agreed this isn't going to work tonight...let's re-schedule this while we can.
In fact, is there any way we CAN re-schedule? I'd rather take them on straight up on the field than get a win in this fashion and somehow have our reputation/character as a team questioned.
Its unfortunate that this had to happen. But to have only five guys show up to our 11 I feel is in some degree a little disrespesctful. By what I have been reading about this I feel the Cougars are the ones taking the heat for the forfeit. This is wrong. We had 11 guys show up to play a very good and talented team in the Hornets. But with only 5 guys (that I could see) and If Jimmy K says he had a sixth I 'll take his word for it. We then would have to give them at least 2 to give them 8 players to start the game. The rule is very clear here, Article 8, paragraph 8-1, 9 players are needed by each team to start a game. A team can finish with 8. The Hornets had 6 players! I also have to add that one of our players wouldnt have been able to play the whole game for health reasons. But to piece meal a team together for the sake of playing isnt the same guys, as it is for both teams to field at least 9 players. I had traveled 79 miles Jimmy, to get to this game to play. If anyone should be upset I think I have a right to be. I wanted to play a Hornets team that I know is a quality team with great talent. But to come there from such a long distance and to see that there were only 6 players...boy what a disappointment. I think in the future coaches need to confirm who is going to show up to play. If there is any issues of not having a team for the game it would probably be wise to call the opponent and explain to him the situation. If the game could be rescheduled, or if a forfeit is the only option. This would save alot of guys gas for their cars. This is something that CDMSBL will have to look into. I hope that this is a learning experience for both sides, but the feeling Im getting is that the Cougars were wrong for this decision. I do have one question to ask however before I finish: Would there be this much chatter about this, if the Hornets faced a team like the Marlins or Yankees under the same circumstances? Enough for now #5
This 46 division has not had to deal with these condition very much. I suspect thursday might be a contributing problem....we have normally asked players from other teams to show on sundays...juxtipostion of games allows for this. And i see the 37 Orioles and Giants played that night. some of those players had to choose which game to attend. As a league we try to schedule around conflicts like this. there was a comment about having too many divsions. Certainly a consideration when a significant amount of players want and are able to play in multiple divisions. I do think with scheduleing diligence we can avoid conflicts and make each division accesible as much as possible. BTW this is a contributng factor of why the 37+ schedule is such a bear.
And borrowing players is fine. preferably before you get to the field but at the field is Ok too. We have encouraged mgr's to get age qualified players to fill in but in the 38's for example that is not required, you need only be a CDMSBL player. Not sure if the 46+ rules explicitly state that. the opposing mgr always has the right to veto the chosen borrowed player(s); preventing the abuse of the rule to make the team better. Preferably the veto is worked out long before game time so other options can be explored. Mike's suggestion of a list is great. an informal list already exist. I can bet Jim called everyone on his list.
I have been in Jim's shoe and its very embarrasing, in fact last time Jim ( and 1 sox ) prevented my forfiet. We lost and I didn't care but at least 18 or so guys played a game. it was my teams problem i asked for grace , and got it. I have more often been on the other side. and its frought with alot of stuff too. especially gametime borrows . which player goes to the other team? a huge awkward deal there! but sometimes you'll get volunteers and I've even gone over so i wouldn't have to send someone. As mgr. we usually work things out. too bad (for all as JP said ) it wasn't here. but I have faith that Jim did everything he could and even worked quickly to remedy its re-occurance.
we have a lot of slack intentionally put in the rules to avoid these situations. some legality to what we saw happening anyway .....start with 8 or 9 but end with 8 , borrowing rules, outs the first time in a vacated spot then skip over....all formalized in various divsional rules. still this happens.....
I feel badly for all involved. We didn't join this league not to play. But, before anymore is said about the manager's of the two teams, thankfully they took this unenviable job, the players who told Jim they would be there are the ones who should be castigated. If they show, games on.
I've stated this before. In the event of borrowing at the last minute, especially from the opposing team, I believe that a forfeit should be recorded as the final score -- and that then the teams should play some baseball under any circumstances possible.
It's hard to loan a team, for example, three of your own players and then lose the game. And it sucks to be put in that spot.
My suggestion, in short: If a team fails to show up, they officially lose. Then everybody left tries to figure out how to make the best of it.
I've stated this before. In the event of borrowing at the last minute, especially from the opposing team, I believe that a forfeit should be recorded as the final score -- and that then the teams should play some baseball under any circumstances possible.
It's hard to loan a team, for example, three of your own players and then lose the game. And it sucks to be put in that spot.
JP
I agree with this almost entirely. The only thing I would caution people on is that I don't believe we should expect the umpires to stick around and call what essentially amounts to a scrimmage game. It puts the umpires in a position where only bad things can happen and I think it's unreasonable to ask them to stay.
In closing (I hope), many great points here. Great discussion, and done with class and dignity.
Bottom line is, I didn't do my job as manager, and for that, the outcome is my problem and justified as well.
But ... we could have used Fred Philips to make 7, then borrowed two to start, give one back after the first pitch to make 8, and play the game. That's the ultimate goal for which CDMSBL subscribes. Play the game.
I would have done that for ANY other team, especially knowing one of my players drove 79 miles to play. No, it wouldn't have been the ultimate game, but there's always another game between us.
So now, the Cougars get slighted out of a game that they paid for. Yes, the Hornets do to, but it is more damaging to the Cougars who were ready to play. I just have to fork over a $125 forfeit fine. And that's why if I was the one who had enough players, I would have done everything in my power to play the game, so my opponent wouldn't have to incur that.
I can live with a forfeit loss, but it could have been avoided. Teams borrow players from their opponents several times a year. It happens. The Marlins borrowed three players for a game last year. One of those players was me. Manager Don Wixon of the Black Sox did not oppose it and went out and won a close game.
Would it have been better for Don to take a forfeit win, which he had every right to do? I hope no one thinks he should have because that's not who he is as a person. That's not what adult baseball in little ol' upstate New York is about.
I say this with all due respect to the Cougars and their manager. I harbor no ill feelings whatsoever. Again, it was my fault. Period. I just hope everyone puts this league in perspective.
