Sorry I have to go this route, but I'm left no other option. I've brought this issue to officials of the umpire's association every year for at least 4 years now, and nothing has been resolved.
On Sunday at the Satellite field between the Vets and Hornets, a Vets player ran into our 2nd-baseman as he turned to try for a DP. The runner didn't slide or abandon the basepath. Nothing was called except for the force out at 2nd base.
This wasn't a big collision, but the 2nd-baseman was off-balance as he turned to make the throw, which he failed to do because of the contact.
This is why I'm ticked off: Three years ago, a player from the Blue Thunder wound up in the hospital with a broken jaw and life-threatening blood clots after being run over on the base paths. Last year, a Hornets player suffered a broken nose by the shoulder of a player who came in standing up on a DP grounder. Nothing was called by the umpires in either case. Players were suspended by the commissioners, yet umpires made no calls in either incident. Those are just two incidents; there have been more, though not as severe.
It's in the rules and the umps know the rules. Slide or get out of the way. As a board member, and yes, an umpire, too, I can tell you I regret voting for the increase in umpire fees. When the hell are you guys going to realize these games are not just about ball, strike and out calls? You spend a lot of time in meetings going over obstruction and interference and how to apply those rules. But you don't.
On Sunday, the base ump watched the contact. I know because I was on the pitcher's mound watching the ump watch the play. After I complained, he turned to the plate umpire! The plate umpire had no clue because he wasn't doing his job. It's his call. But, as I said, the base ump looked right at it and made no call except for the force out at 2nd base. Guys, that should be routine in your pre-game, and don't tell me you don't do a pre-game for summer ball.
Infielders are extremely vulnerable when they pivot to turn two. So, I will ask every 2nd-baseman and SS in all divisions: If you see a runner coming at you, put that throw smack between his eyes. It's our only defense because the infielders get no help from the umpires.
What's it going to take? A lawsuit? A death? Guys have to go to work to support their families. Follow the rules and protect them, damn it.
I expect umps to respond quickly and harshly, so have at it and get it over with. Then go do your damn jobs and earn your damn paychecks. As I said, I've addressed this issue through private correspondence with umpire officers/officials several times now over the years, and there has been little progress in this area - if any. If I personally see it again, I will get in your face till you throw me out - and I still may not leave. As you can tell, this is frustrating.
Any ump that would like to talk about it, call me at 461-7850. I'd be oh so happy to discuss why you need to make that call.
Let's see if the league officials deal with you the same way they dealt with me when I called out the umps here on the BB. If I see your apology, I will know that they were consistent in their dealings. If I dont't see it, then I know tht they were not consistent. Jimmy, you are a bad boy!
Not really, ony. I am just an interested observer on this one. I was just wondering if Jimmy K is going to get the same treatment as I did when I called out the umps last year. It was demanded that I apologize on the BB, anrd refrain from calling out the umps publicly.
Jim, I understand your position on safety and I agree that even to error on safety's side is where we should be. I think some of the confusion may be the way that our Specialized Rules are written. I am assuming that I have the most recent copy.
Rule 5-8 states that "All runners must avoid an intentional collision with a fielder and vice versa. If a runner, in the judgement of the umpire, intentionally collides with a defensive player, he will be ruled out and it will result in the player's ejection and/or suspension." There is no direction to slide or move out of the way. Rule 5-9 states, "In plays at home plate, the runner must slide before making contact with the catcher....".
I have umpired, as well, and I prefer to use plain rules rather than "umpire's judgement" because the best you usually get in those situations is one team satisfied and the other not satisfied. If there is a genuine concern for safety on the bases, as well as home plate, the issue should be discussed at the next meeting and make rules 5-8 and 5-9 consistent. I would not have a problem with requiring a slide at any base when there is a play, although this could cause some injuries, as well. If the ball clearly beats the runner he could eschew the slide and simply give himself up. Sorry to seem long-winded, but I do share your concern for safety. If we require something (as in Rule 5-9) and not leave it up to the umpire's judgement (as in Rule 5-8) it eliminates the potential for confusion.
I think Jim is right on as far as the potential for injuries is concerned......i will remain quiet on the umps part of it.
I play 2nd base and was taken out last year on what was basically a clean play...............nothing dirty about it..........however when i limped home that night and over the next couple of days at work it really pissed me off that i had an injury that really could have been completely avoided.
I didn't have a chance of turning the double play and was simply forcing the lead runner at 2nd and got ripped up by a pair of metal spikes.......i know it is part of the game but maybe in an old man's league we could all mellow out just a little and approach the game a little differently........it is tough enough to stay healthy for a season without something like this happening.
I know i personally would rather lose an over 35 or over 45 baseball game than be the person who caused someone else a serious injury in order to win.
The rule has been discussed ad nauseam, but we don't have copies of the updated rules to look at. But this is more safety and common sense even if the rule is clearly written. Our rule is also based on the high school rule, not the MLB rule.
An "intentional or malicious'' collision demands an ejection. Simple, light contact requires the call of a DP. Yes, sometimes there may be a fine line, which requires judgment. That's why umpires get paid - and paid well.
Simple, light contact should also include a warning, which it does not. I will bring that up at the next board meeting.
I received an email from a player about guys who have had hip or knee replacements and can't slide, but still want a chance to get to a base safely. Either bail out of the basepath or stay home and play Monopoly. There is no room for players who put their opponents at risk. Period.
A player was also told he didn't have to slide in this league. He's right. You don't. But you can't go into a defensive player and make contact unless one of your cheeks is on the ground. As for getting spiked as I just read, that's part of the game and we can't ask an umpire to read into intent if the player is sliding legally unless it's obviously blatant.
But if a player comes in at me spikes up as happened to JohnC, then I'm going to trip with spikes down on his hand, arm or leg. No one should be going in spikes up with intent to injure. We are too old for that. If they want to play MLB rules in the 18 and 25 divisions, go for it. Not in the 35s and up. Spikes up in an MLB game usually leads to brawls. I, too, play 2B in the 45s and 2B and SS in the 55s. I welcome a good, hard, clean slide with spikes tucked in order to prevent a DP. Knock me on my ass; I don't care. But do it legally and clean.
Anyone who sends a player to the hospital because he can't slide needs to be banned from MSBL. I'm tired of this crap and tired of watching umps ignore the rule.
There is only one play that we can't really get a handle on. If a throw to first base is up the line and the 1st-baseman has to go into the basepath to take the throw, all bets are off. The runner can run into the 1st-baseman without penalty if he is running in the legal basepath unless it is deemed malicious, like lowering his shoulder and coming up to the 1st-baseman's face.
Let me also add this as well: Two umps who had one of our Hornets games several weeks ago were spectacular. They asked about the rule at the home plate meeting. Then they went out and called a great game. One of the umps, I was told, is in his first year. I was shocked. So I ask, why is a first-year guy and his partner asking about the rule and veteran umps are not? Do what you get paid to do.
Managers also need to bring this up before the game so you all know what to expect if a fielder is interfered with or a runner is obstructed.
I don't mean to open a huge debate here. It's simple: Bail or get out of the basepath. Umpires need to take charge of that situation. Period.
"There is only one play that we can't really get a handle on. If a throw to first base is up the line and the 1st-baseman has to go into the basepath to take the throw, all bets are off. The runner can run into the 1st-baseman without penalty if he is running in the legal basepath unless it is deemed malicious, like lowering his shoulder and coming up to the 1st-baseman's face."
I was playing first base for the Shaskys on May 17 in Cooperstown against the Braves. After a 12 run Shasky rally in the 4th inning, the Braves came to bat and a player bunted and proceeded to run like hell to first. Our catcher picked up the ball and threw it to me at first base inside the baseline as the batter steamrolled towards first base. We were in Cooperstown so the adrenaline level was high. As I went for the ball, the baserunner collided with me and sent me for a loop. As I regained consciousness after 10 seconds, I had a concussion, dislocated shoulder, and a torn rotator cuff. It was just part of the game, even though after the Cooperstown emergency room, x-rays, and MRIs, I am scheduled for surgery next Friday, August 7, to repair the rotator cuff. There was never even one second that I felt anything other than that's how the game is played. It's just one of those plays you mentioned that, as you said, "we can't really get a handle on." I always feel privileged to be on a ball field anywhere while playing for this league, and sometimes things happen during the course of competition. Hope all is well with all the players in our league, and can't wait to get patched up and get out there next year.
Billy makes a great point. We are always going to be at risk of injury, when you go between the lines. You need to accept it and embrace it. Lets not try to legislate all of the "baseball" out of the game. I say that we give the umpires the directive to be harsh with anyone that they deem has "malicious intent", and let players play. Taking out a middle infielder, while sliding has been a part of the game forever. Who are we to say that it no longer belongs, once you reach a certain age. Maybe those affraid of the contact should play outfield or Monopoly. There is always soccer for those who want to enjoy a sport with no contact allowed.
i know it is part of the game but maybe in an old man's league we could all mellow out just a little and approach the game a little differently........it is tough enough to stay healthy for a season without something like this happening.
I know i personally would rather lose an over 35 or over 45 baseball game than be the person who caused someone else a serious injury in order to win.
Careful John, you're going to be labelled as a loser who doesn't want to win and they'll contract your team or force the mercy rule on you. Heaven forbid we treat this like a league for all players.
-- Edited by The_Hurricane on Friday 31st of July 2009 08:15:13 AM
Who are we to say that it no longer belongs, once you reach a certain age. Maybe those affraid of the contact should play outfield or Monopoly. There is always soccer for those who want to enjoy a sport with no contact allowed.
Coming from the guy who's like 6'4" and 240 lbs. That's real brave of you to say.
If you read my message/reply closely, I agree with taking out a fielder on a clean, hard SLIDE. I said ... knock me on my ass, I don't care; just do it while sliding, clean and legally ...
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