We who play catcher in the CDMSBL need to know the answer to a simple question. Are we fair game for runners who have made a poor decision to try to score? Yes or no will do.
Are runners required to slide into home or are they allowed to get a running shot at our league's catchers to try to jar the ball loose? I think it would be dangerous to allow the Pete Rose - Ray Fosse play into our league. This is not the majors, and we aren't getting paid millions to put our necks on the line. It was my understanding as I put my shin guards on today that we played under a must slide rule. Any player trying to run over a fielder that is attempting to make a play was subject to an immediate ejection.
The ruling did not go that way in todays 28+ playoff game at Ichabod Crane, when the Yankees shortstop ran me over at home plate, when it became obvious to him that he was going to be out by a good margin. I had time to make the catch and the tag, but not enough time to protect myself (as is usually the case on plays like these). I am going to have one helluva sore neck for a little while, as the runner used his shoulder, elbow and forearm to the side of my head. The game was protested at this point when the home plate umpire pleaded ignorance to the "must slide" rule. We need to send a clear message about this play when ruling on this protest or you are going to have a tough time finding anyone who wants to get behind the plate in our league. I certainly don't consider myself a pussy, but this play has no place in an adult mens league. The league officials need to stand up and be counted on this one. The response to this protest should be an easy one!!!
Mike - I was the home plate umpire today........and if I may paraphrase you,
"the home plate umpire pleaded ignorance to the rule";
IGNORANCE by dictionary defintion connotes a lack of education or lack of knowledge.........
Sorry, but I don't consider myself ignorant.....I have worked over 200 games this year, including high level collegiate, Sectional Finals of High School Ball, State and Atlantic Coast Regional Baseball of the North Atlantic College World Series, American Legion World Series, Connie Mack and Mickey Mantle World Series. This past week I was selected as a National Babe Ruth (1 of 12 in the Nation) Umpire to work the 2006 15-16 yr old World Series......I probably look at over 20 variations of Major League Baseball, College, High School, Summer Program, and Babe Ruth Rules and their application, from March 15th to October 15th for the past 12 seasons. I take and pass written exams every season to qualify me to work, and then apply applicable rulings......I do not carry a Rule Book applicable to each league to each game......but instead try to interpret from as basic set of rules established at the Major League Level, and make appropriate applications. So, I would have to say, that I am very informed and very knowledgable.........
Today's play was a bang-bang play, and in my judgement a clean play, based on Major League Rules, with no malicious intent. The runner did not attempt to jar the ball loose with a jab, forearm thrust, or lowering of the shoulder for thrust, or a spearing technique with helmet to head, or other exposed non-equipment protected body part. You held onto the ball and recorded the out. Manager Jim McQuade lodged a protest of the rule, stating the runner must slide or be subject to ejection. Since an out was recorded I deemed the contact to be non-malicious, and then marked the home book, that a protest was lodged, and did not eject the runner.
No one on site was able to produce a set of rules contary to the ruling.
As an umpire, in a Men's Game, knowing that we all have jobs to go to on Monday, I will always err on the side of safety, but as I said, and as a brethren catcher, having been on the same side of the play for 42 years...most recently in a 38's game...the play while hard, was clean.
I'm not sure this provides a simple answer to a simple question in a game where emotions, frustrations, and baiting of opponents and umpires by both teams, in a highly charged playoff contest ran rampant. However, I remain confident that given all information available to me, and staying within the context of baseball, that rulings made between the line were based on judgement, experience, knowledge and edcuation. I defer to League Officials on any appropriate, different and specific applications of rules as I intrepreted them today. Jim Dalton
We play by CDMSBL rules not Major League rules and Article 5-8 of our rules states the following two sentences:
Any base runner may not remain on his feet and deliberately collide with a defensive player. Penalty for deliberate collision is that the base runner will be automatically called out and ejected from the game.
The rules were not followed thus the protest. Now it's up to the league officials.
The game was highly emotional as this same team deliberately bowled over our catcher last year as well. That incident was very ugly as punches were thrown and the game had to be stopped. This doesn't belong in our league.
Jimmy, Jimmy , Jimmy - you actually seem offended at the thought of being called ignorant( of a rule), not personally, I suspect, but not when a player calls you a f$5$ idiot. Anyway, I don't dispute it was a clean play at home, christ it was hard-nosed baseball. Unfortunately, not only was it a clear violation, not only of CDMSBL 28 league rules, 38 CDMSBL rules, it was a violation of NATIONAL MSBL rules. We are not here to debate whether it is a good rule or not, whether fathers with kids, (or in Mike's case) grandkids at home that we support, should risk that kind of potential injury. It is the rule. It's in black and white, and every league official has a copy. Having said that, the Yankees won today, and they beat me. I can accept that. What I don't accept is the continuing deterioration of respect for the league, umpires, competitors and teamates, that a few,a very few, individuals seem to continue to perpetuate.
First, I should say that I played in the CDMSBL for two years back in '01 and '02. I am not familiar with the "slide or give up" rule.
I have played in a few leagues in the country and this is the first I've heard of this rule. I played in the DCMSBL and NoVaNABA in Washington DC as well as the CPNABA here in Albany. In every league that I've played in, the catcher is fair game. The only time the rule was ever brought up in any of those leagues was at the managers' off-season meetings for the CPNABA last year where one of the managers (a manager who never played anything other than 1B) brought up that he wanted to force runners to slide or give up at home plate to avoid contact with the catchers. The ruling was vetoed.
I must say that if there is a rule in place, then the runner should be out (rules are rules, no matter how weak they are). I will not dispute this point.
However, if you are a catcher and you are willing to put on the gear - everyday - then you must be willing to be plowed over at the plate. As a manger who vetoed that rule in the NABA off-season meeting, I vetoed that rule as a CATCHER. I welcome the opportunity to get run-over. I WANT PEOPLE TO TRY IT. I play the position with the understanding that today's game could be the last time I play it due to a play like that; collisions are part of the game. If you feel the need to run me over - PLEASE DO. When I played in the NoVaNABA league, I was barreled over by a man who was 6 inches and easliy 75 pounds my superior. He crossed his arms and struck me (with excessive force) right where my neck meets my torso and threw me about four feet with the force of his strength. He dislodged the ball and was ruled safe....THE MAN WAS 57 YEARS OLD - I was 30. It was the hardest I've ever been hit playing the game and he was old enough to be my father. In my opinion, it shouldn't be just the runner's decision to "slide or give up," the catcher should have the right to "give up or get out of the baseline" if he doesn't wish to get struck by an on-coming baserunner.
So for you to state, "I certainly don't consider myself a pussy, but this play has no place in an adult mens league," is a borderline insult to all those who play the position the way it is meant to be played. There IS a place for this in a men's league because the play is in place all over the country in other men's leagues. I won't go so far as to call you a "pussy" because I don't know you and after reading many of your postings I have a great deal of respect for you and your knowledge of the game; but if you wish to avoid collisions in the future, perhaps you should move to the outfield where they happen so very infrequently and leave the catching to those of us who are willing to accept because it is a part of the game.
Here is another case of not hearing what was said. I said that the home plate umpire plead ignorant to the no slide rule. I was not calling you ignorant. You confirmed what I said when you said that you were confused by umpiring in so many different leagues, or something like that. I don't care why you weren't aware of our rule as you were umpirining our playoff game, and I don't blame you for calling it the way you did, if you didn't know the rule. I just want to get it straight for all the catchers before anyone decides whether or not to strap on the "tools of ignorance" again in a CDMSBL game. Nobody enjoys physical contact more than me. I just want everybody to be on the same page. This is the league officials' job now. We need to make this rule crystal clear, and enforce against each and every infraction.
J. Martin and M. Girard - you are right. I got a case of red a-- when I saw ignorant and umpire in same sentence. It appears Jim McQuade has the basis of the ruling in his post, and it was too bad that no one on site could produce a copy of the rule then. As umpires, we are not furnished sets of individual rules for each league or level that we work. We go through a high school clinic, eight weeks prior to the season, (where we are trained that slide rule there is no malicious contact, runner must avoid contact and slide straight through the base), college clinics emphasize (must give yourself up or attempt a clean slide); other leagues inform us prior to the season of any variations of MLB Rules, or have someone on sight to provide back up as needed. The great thing about baseball is the snap judgements right or wrong, that have to be called. Hockey - they go to penalty box, hoop - you "T" somebody up, football - 15 yards for unsportsmanlike. Baseball is different, with a more complex set of rules, and more judgement that needs to be exercised, and other than base awards, no appreciable on field penalties, except for ejection and forfiet. I stand by my decision yesterday, that it was clean, hard play, an out was recorded, and since the contact was in my judgement non-malicious, (although Mike's neck might say differently), the play stood and based on my application of MLB Rules, no ejection was warranted.
My best solution to avoid similar incidents is that I will obtain a copy of the MSBL Rules, and those particular to CD-MSBL, and disseminate them ASAP to our crews, and follow through next season with an afternoon clinic, working a pre- season scrimmage of teams from our leagues, to have all of our umpires, myself included, fully informed of all league rules, and their applications.
I have enjoyed working Cubs games this season. The team is has first class guys, who play the game the right way.
Having been around this league since it was started, I can tell you unequivally, that there IS a slide rule. This was debated and discussed ad nauseaum by the board and managers on numerous occassions and was wirtten into the rules. Not sure if those rules have been modified but the rule was that if the catcher had the ball and was on the plate, the runner had to slide or would be called out, thrown out of the game and face a one game suspension. If the catcher was up the line without the ball, the runner HAD to go around him, but if the catcher received the ball and then tagged out the runner, the umpire could award home to the runner since he evaded a collision in the spirit of the rule.
Every umpire should be given a set of CDMSB Rules prior to each season. Unfortunatly, I don't think this happens. When we used assocaition umps, we would provide the rule changes to them but again, they would not give it to the umps. Seems no one wanted to learn different rules for different organizations.
The bottom line is this - we all have to go work the next day and no one (that I can think of) gets played to pay. So we play for the thrill and the love of the game. Winning can not be at all costs in our league. Sooner or later, someone is going to get serioulsy hurt and then perhaps we may get some support for implementing this rule. Something needs to be done about this now - this issue has been kicking aorund since we started this league.
Perhaps we can now agree that there is indeed and always has been a slide or give up rule in this league. I have been on the receiving end of several shoulders, elbows, helmets and whatnot and finally had one umpire care enough to look up the rule which states that if the catcher has the ball or is about to have the ball the runner must slide or give up. I have yet to have an umpire enforce that rule in this league. I am personally glad that this issue has been brought to a head so to speak. Now on with the games.
