on monday night at satellite, in a game between the whiz kids and the red hot peppers, there was a play at the plate late in the game in which the peppers' runner, who'd scored, was called out for his failure to slide.
i didn't protest the call then, but thinking about it now, i think i should have.
in any case, i'd like some clarification on this rule please, especially as it applies to plays at the plate.
for starters, the rule, 5-8: b, appears to apply initially to double play balls. it says: "The intent of the force-play slide rule is to ensure the safety of the defensive player. This is a safety rule as well as an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule."
so, we're talking double plays here. but then the next line says, "This rule applies to a force-play at any base except to a batter who hits the ball" and runs to first (where he needn't slide.) ..."On any force play, the runner must slide in a direct line between the two bases or run in a direction away from the play as to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder." (the last part of that line again applies to double plays at second or third.)
ok, now for our situation:
it's the top of the sixth, we're down 8-5 (which was the final score) to the whizzers, and with two outs, one of our players walks. he steals second. i single, the runner goes to third. on a 3-0 count, i run to steal second. as i do, our runner on third takes off for home. a whizzers infielder takes the ball about 30 feet behind the mound - about 10 feet in front of me at second and fires it home. i pulled into second in time to see our runner from third leaping over the outstretched arms of the catcher who was still waiting for the ball, and, i later learned, blocking part or all of the plate. i saw our runner score and i saw the catcher catch the ball and swing his glove to tag him. the catcher missed. i thought, good, it's 8-6 and we've got a runner on second.
but the umpire called our runner out. our runner didn't know about the rule, which is my fault. i didn't complain in part because i was far from the action at second, and didn't see it clearly, and because initially i felt guilty that i didn't remind all our players to slide where there's a chance of collision.
but then, when i got home, i saw that's not what the rule says. the rule does not say "slide to avoid collision" at any base.
and the more i think about it, the more i think the call, based on the force play rule, may have been wrong for three reasons:
first: technically, it wasn't a force play. the runner wasn't being forced at home; he went on his volition and it was a tag play.
second: i heard several teammates say later that the catcher was blocking a good two-thirds or more of the plate, so that the runner's only options were to leap his lowered outstretched hands (which he did), slide, collide with the catcher or stop and be tagged out. (he couldn't run outside the base paths.)
third: the runner clearly beat the ball. he didn't see a need to slide. the ump never said our runner didn't beat the ball.
all that leads me to think we need to clarify the force-slide rule. for the reasons above, and for health reasons.
here's the health issue, especially as it applies to 55+ division: i can name about a dozen people (myself included) in the 55s who've had hip, back and knee surgery. i wonder if forcing any players, but especially the surgically repaired geezers, to slide, especially on what could be really hard ground, makes sense from a health perspective?
wouldn't it make more sense to change the rule from a force slide rule to a "swipe-tag/ no collision rule?" i'd suggest it would say something like this:
"in tag plays, the defender must get out of the way of the bag or the plate, giving the runner clear access, and all tags must be swipe tags. if the defender blocks the path to the base or plate, forcing a collision, the runner is safe no matter when the ball arrives or how it's applied. since the runner has an open lane to the base or plate, he has the choice of going into either standing or sliding. the intent is still to avoid collision."
if i'd thought this out before the game, i'd have protested.
reactions anyone?
-mike
-- Edited by mhart on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 09:20:22 PM
-- Edited by mhart on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 09:25:01 PM
That's curious, Mike. I was under the impression that sliding was mandatory at second base, third base, or home anytime there was "a play" at the base, except that a forced runner could run out of the base line before reaching base on a force play. I remember a play last year in which a runner trying to score from second on a single was called out for not sliding at home, despite the fact that the catcher did not cleanly field the throw from the outfielder. But, as you point out, the provision you cite pretty clearly only applies to force play situations. I thought maybe there was another relevant provision, but I don't see it.
Mike, First of all, congratulations on a well played game. Regarding the play at home, the ball beat the runner, and that is why the catcher was able to guard the plate. When he went to apply the tag, there was contact, jarring the ball loose. The umpire made the correct call. Regardless if there is a force play involved, a runner should not be rewarded by knocking the ball out of a defensive player's control. Let's continue to remind our players to avoid contact, and thus avoid injuries. Again Mike, congratulations on a well played game, and good luck the rest of the season. Jim Porter Whiz Kids
thanks for the comment, curt. i added one line in my suggested rule that you may not have seen, which says that since the runner has a clear path to the base or plate, he has the choice of going in standing up or sliding.
so if those who know the rules well can give a reading here to what curt and i say, that'd be welcome..
I thought I heard at the rules meeting that the attending umpire said that he couldn't force anyone to slide.
HOWEVER, in situations requiring a slide should the player not slide and cause interference said runner would be called out.
In this situation where there seemingly wasn't much of a play being made on the runner, my take away from the rules meeting was that this play simply would have been left as it played out on the field.
****** Completely different take after reading Mr. Porters account ******
Tim Paul Burns
33+ Reds 45+ Shaskys
-- Edited by tburns8 on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 09:30:35 PM
Porter says the runner made contact with the catcher while standing up trying to score. On the surface, he's correct. Runner is out if the catcher was properly placed on the play. In other words, a catcher also cannot try to intentionally move into the path of a runner to try to draw contact to get a call.
I also read that the catcher blocked the plate as the throw was made. In that scenario, runner should be called safe. Runners must be given a clear path to slide into a base (except first base as stated).
Personally, had I been umpiring and those two scenarios occurred, I would have called the runner out. He must AVOID CONTACT. He doesn't have to slide. The only contact he can make is if he slides legally. Had the runner avoided contact or in fact slid in, I then would have called him safe regardless if he was tagged out because the catcher blocked the plate without giving the runner a clear path to slide into the base.
thank you all for your comments. it's a complex issue. i'm with you, jimmy k: i really would like to see a replay.
and jim p. thanks for your kind comments. it was a good game. you guys played well, too.
and i have to credit you jim: you had a better view than i of the play, as did everyone on both benches. it was a bang-bang play.
but from my spot 127 feet away, i thought our runner beat the throw. the catcher may have been reaching for the ball, which caused him to step in front of the plate and which may have brought on some contact. but i didn't see contact there. i thought i saw it at the point where the runner had already scored. then the catcher reached to his side to tag the runner, and the ball fell out. a major league camera review would help.
getting back to the rule, which is a key point for me:
the rule isn't an "avoid collisions" at all costs rule; and it doesn't say that runners have the right to stand if they think they can avoid collisions. the sense i have is that lots of guys and umpires in the league think that in all close plays runners must slide or be out.
in fact, the first thing the umpire said as he made his call monday night was, "the runner is out: he did not slide."
i sense we may need to rewrite the "avoid collisions" rule so that everyone knows that (1) runners have a right to an open lane to the base: (2) runners may go into the base standing up if they choose; (3) if a defender blocks the base, the runner is safe, regardless when the ball arrives; (4) throws should be made to the defender on his side of the base; (4) the defender is not to reach across the base to get a thrown ball if that reaching would cause a collision; (6) if a thrown ball hits an incoming runner, the runner is safe.
because right now, i'm still puzzled: if one of my players honestly thinks he has a throw beaten at home and so doesn't slide, then, on a close play, will he be called out - not for where and when the ball lands, but because he doesn't slide?
An umpire cannot enforce any rule that says a player has to slide at anytime, no matter what the league rule says. Which if there is a rule like that in our league, it should be changed for legal reason. I won't get into those. I think we all can figure those out. Any rule should say that a player must avoid contact when possible. In this situation if the umpired called the runner out because he didn't slide would be incorrect. Especially if he tried to avoid the contact. If he tried to run the catcher over or dropped his shoulder not only would he be out but maybe ejected also.
I was on deck and the runner did try to avoid the tag. The plate was blocked several feet up the base path. The glove got the runner on the thigh but the ball came out. Also, I am a state commissioner with Babe Ruth Baseball and we do not have a mandatory slide rule for legal reasons. If a player is required to slide and gets injured, there may be a lawsuit. We do have a rule against malicious contact which is a judgement call on the part of the umpire.
Also, the runner was initially called safe by the plate umpire, but he reversed his decision after being strongly told by the catcher that the league has a must slide rule and the called had to be reversed.
I was at the plate at the time and the pitch was ball 4 so I had a good view of the play. The catcher was just out front of the when the throw came in. After receiving the ball the catcher turned around and proceeded toward the runner whose foot touched home plate at the same time. In essence the catcher initiated the contact. The ball was knocked out of his hands but that didn't matter as the runner was call safe anyway. I then proceeded to first when all of sudden the call was reversed. The player who scored was new to the league and when Brian was raving about the slide rule the new player opologized and I believe that influenced the umpire to reverse the call. The initial safe call was correct. Hopefully this is a learning experience for all.
The eyewitness accounts validate the fact that it was a close play. However, the batter indicates that the catcher was just in front of the plate. The on deck batter states that the catcher was several feet up the baseline. It can't be both. The batter believes that the umpire was persuaded to change his initial call by listening to the catcher's point of view (I wouldn't describe it as "raving"). That statement discredits the umpire, who called a good game. We're all going to have games that involve close calls, and the outcome of those calls can be debated over and over again. Nobody was injured, a good game was played, and players were respectful of each other, and the umpires. I want to add that Al Hart played for the Peppers. Al didn't play last year, and it was good to see him again. After every game, he goes out to the field, takes a knee, and gives thanks. That was the play of the game. Heck, that's the play of every game. Thanks Al, for reminding me to put the outcome of the game secondary to having the opportunity to play and enjoy baseball, and for all the blessings that we experience. A longtime teammate of mine has had two strokes, and I just found out that he had heart surgery. At age 57. When I play next Wednesday, I'll take a knee. Jim Porter
About Al Hart.... now that is the most accurate statement in this whole discussion. I have played and managed Al and like you Jim, it was nice to have him back. A nicer guy you won't find anywhere.
jim - that's a very touching comment you made about al, your teammate and the game. your friend is going through a very hard stretch; i hope he becomes healthy again. your perspective is right on target. thank you for writing it.
